Officer Statements
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PO Brian Kneller |
PO Lawrence Johnson |
PO Nicolo Stavale |
Sgt. Andrew Mitchell |
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Interview |
Hilbert/Gehring > 7:36-7:55, April 18 |
Hilbert/Gehring > 8:14-8:35, April 18 / Hilbert/Gehring > 17:41-17:45, April 27 |
Hilbert/Gehring > 9:40-55, –10:03, April 18 |
Hilbert/Gehring > 10:50-11:32, April 18 |
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Who was Already on Scene |
first to scene |
“Stavale was there and Sergeant Mitchell was, was I believe behind him and there were two on the ground.” |
“I think Officer Johnson got there right after Officer Kneller got there. And then um, I was behind Sergeant, Mitchell.” |
“I was on scene there within three, |
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Questions to Hebert and Hutchinson |
“I just was asking them where they coming, what was going on.” |
“Um, Stavale was there, like I said. He was pretty much there talking to him. I just walked up and I just took control of the questioning.” “That’s when I walked up and I said so where’s, where’s the knife, do you have a sword, I said where’s the sword. He said, I ain’t have no sword. Cause he had a knife or something on him. He goes, I ain’t got no knife. And she said we’re just walking our dog, that’s all we’re doing is walking our dog tonight. He goes we walk. our dog every night.” |
none heard |
“I can’t, I can’t tell you which officer asked the questions, I believe it was Officer Kneller, uh, you know, where are you coming from” “The, the same officer said, well, that doesn’t answer my question, where are you coming from, where were you?” |
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Commands: Stand up, Move |
“He told him to stand up. And he said do you have um, do you have the knife or where is the knife.” |
“I said here, why don’t you stand up and come here with me. And then I, I backed up like this” A:… Uh, that’s when I said you stand up, and that’s when we kind of went this way. So that’s when we moved this way a little further —. Q: So he walked out from the? A: I told him, I said you come here with him. And I said stand up and you come with me. And when he stood up, he kind of went like that. I said keep your hands out of your pocket and come over here by me, and that’s when he… “ |
“Um, just taking in my surroundings and then as I approached and I got closer, the, the deceased the, the man, he stood up. And he started to walk towards the sidewalk, actually started to walk towards um, Officer um, Johnson.” “He gets up, yeah, cause I, you know, park my car and start, and as I’m approaching on foot um, he stands up and” |
“I don’t know if he was ordered up or if he stood up on his own accord” “he had stood up and, and again, I don’t know if he was ordered or if he stood up on his own accord” |
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Commands: Hands |
“Q: Did you hear any commands? A: Um, not that I can remember. Q: Did you issue any commands? A: No. Q: Did Officer Johnson? A: Not that I recall.” |
“And so when he got up, he started to put his hand in his pocket. I said keep your hands out of your pocket. And he walked, took another step forward and he reached for his, his pocket again. I said, I said, keep your hands out of your pocket.” |
“And that’s when Officer Johnson gives him his, you know, verbal warnings, you know, don’t put your hand in your pocket, keep your hand out of your pocket, and that’s what I hear.” “Johnson actually backed up a, a little bit and he, he gave two, I heard two verbal warnings. You know, don’t put, you know take your hands out of your pocket, don’t put your hands in your pocket.” |
“Several. And, and there was more than one voice issuing the commands.” “Don’t put your hands in your pockets, keep your hands out of your pockets, get your hands out of your pockets.” “Officer Kneller and then I heard another voice say keep your hands out of your pockets, don’t put your hands in your pockets” “They’re continuing to give him orders to not put your hands in your pockets.” |
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Object |
“it came up so quick I couldn’t tell for sure, but in my mind it was probably the, the weapon” “it looked, it was dark um, I could tell it was some kind of object. I couldn’t, it was decent size. I just couldn’t make out the blade.” |
“I see…his hand coming up and it looked like, like a triangle, all I seen is a triangle, and I knew, you know, we’re looking for a knife” “It just looked like, I mean, it looked like a triangle coming out of his thing. I mean, it was the knife, but I don’t know if it was, if it was opening as he was pulling it out.” “I mean, I seen silver and I seen silver and black. But it was, it, it, like I said, it just seemed like it was a triangle at the time.” “Q: closed or,? A: What, what I remember, like I said, I, I, I mean, it looked like a triangle and just you know, but I seen the blade. So I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know if it was just because the fast movement, I mean, I don’t know. I just, I mean, I’m not going to, it looked like a triangle. I seen you know, what was in his hand and the, the, the, the knife, the blade down, I don’t know, was it opening, I don’t know. I didn’t.” |
“Took out a silver instrument, I which I believed to be a knife. Um, looked to be six to eight inches in length” “I believe it was a knife because of the way the initial run came out,… it stated that the, the complainant… said he had been cut and… the radio run also stated the word, you know, the sword.” “when I got on scene, I was anticipating some kind of weapon on this guy” |
“a long object and once, once, uh, a portion of it had cleared his pocket there was no doubt in my mind that it was a knife. Um, it was silver, shiny, uh, thin, that it appeared to be a thin bladed knife.” “when he pulled it out of his pocket there was no doubt it was a knife; it was a long, thin blade, it was probably about a foot or so long.” “While he was taking it out I knew it was a knife. And it was…shiny, thin, uh, exactly what was described by the, the victim. — you know, a long knife.” |
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Motion with Object |
“He comes back up with something in his hand. Starts waving it around, kind of, almost starts turning around towards Johnson.” “And kind of went like this and was going back and forth with it.” “Flaring it around.” “There was some kind of object in his hand. Um, he started to, seemed like he was waving it around, and towards Officer Johnson.” Q: After he drew this, an estimate, how many seconds or minutes passed before you heard the shot? A: Probably about five seconds. “He had it in his arm and he pulled it up to like kind of, he had it up where pretty much it was like up towards his, his arm was out, but it’s up towards his head. And then he was kind of going back and forth with it” Q: Flared it wildly around, or was it? A: He kind of from what I can remember he went like this with it. I couldn’t tell if he was trying to attack somebody with it or if he was just flaring around, but he was doing it in the direction of Officer Johnson. |
“And I looked down at his hand and it looked, looked like a triangle, you know. And it came up and it’s, that’s when I went like that, and I took another step back and I just heard pow, pow. And then, it just went “I stepped back and he just went like that.” “And it was just, it was one, it was one movement. I just remember up, like that. And then pow, pow and then he was kind of back and went like that. Q: So it wasn’t a second movement or anything, it’s just up? A: Yeah, it was just up. And I can remember up and just, like I said, I remember it being like a triangle coming up.” |
“In an instant as he took the knife out of his pocket, as the man took the knife out of his pocket, he swung it and, you know, it could’ve been meant for any of us. It could’ve been meant for me, cause I was right behind Johnson. …and.. at that point, as he was swinging it, I heard two, two gunshots, you know, double tap. And um, the knife was thrown into the front yard of this house here at 1833. … And at that point the man fell on the ground.” QQ: Now, was that, when he pulled it out of his pocket, went in that motion, was that the same motion when he threw it or was it a separate motion? A: No, it was all one motion. QQ: Okay. A: It was all one continuous, dig into it, you know, as he’s digging into his pocket, he grabs it and then just. Q: When did you hear the shots, while this was going on? A: Yeah, it, it, it was as the arc of his, of his arm, you know, um, throwing the item. |
“When I saw the knife is when I drew and established a target and, and, and backdrop. And when he raised his arm is when I made
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Where Hebert moved |
“When Officer Johnson came and said get up, he kind of stood up, stumbled a little bit over towards Johnson and was facing the front of the house.” “He stands up and kind of stumbles a little bit. And he ends up facing the house” “Well it, it was actually like, he wasn’t turning towards him, but it, that’s where I knew Officer Johnson was standing when he first said you know, where’s the knife. And then that’s when all of a sudden, real quick, it went down and came up. And he kind of, he was still facing that, the house, but he was kind of looking at his direction.” “he was standing straight up. He was kind of planted.” |
A: Uh, that’s when I said you stand up, and that’s when we kind of went this way. So that’s when we moved this way a little further Q: So he walked out from the? A: I told him, I said you come here with him.” “I said here, why don’t you stand up and come here with me. And then I, I backed up like this, when he came up and that’s when he kind of reached for, like this.” “He stood pretty much straight up. Uh, he touched his side. I said keep your hands out of your pocket. And as we were, he was standing up and I was still stepping back, and then it, he reached again, and then, then.” |
“And then the man started to walk towards Officer Johnson” Q: And he was walking toward both of you or? A: Um-hmm, yeah.” A: His right hand was digging in his, in his, in his right pocket. Q: Now, after the first command, did he continue digging or did he? A: He continued digging and he continued walking towards the side, towards the edge of the sidewalk and the curb. |
“Um, he raised, uh, he raised his, the, the, his right hand up holding the knife and took a step towards Officer Kneller and, uh, believed that to be an overt, um, um, aggressive movement towards Officer Kneller.” A: He comes up. Q: Right. A: And then takes a step towards. Q: With his left foot? A: Yes. |
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Subjective Interpretation |
“Because in, in my mind he had a knife, he had some kind of a weapon” |And it was a knife run and we didn’t know where the knife was and all of a sudden he’s pulling something out, so in, in my mind it was a knife.” “I thought he was going to try and attack somebody.” |
“Q: Why did you pull your gun? A: Because I knew the person had a knife and he was reaching for his knife now. His knife was out. He was coming at me. Q: Okay. He was. A: Absolutely, I mean, he was, I mean, it’s, it’s, I see it in his eyes. His eyes were big. I mean, he was, and, and. QQ: What did, what did you perceive was happening? What A: A guy was pulling a knife out. And he was coming at me “I felt the sense of him lying, I mean, I knew down the street, you know, he hurt someone with, you know, they said it was a sword.” “We were told he had a knife on him and he was, his, his eyes were up, bigger than anything and so I just saw slow motion.” “I kept remembering that in the beginning, right before he stood up, after the second time, I told him to keep his, or after the first time I told him to keep his uh, hands out of his pockets, he was kind of at his, halfway standing up. He looked right at her and he said take care of my dog. And I remember even then, “He’s out to, to put on fight. That he, something, to me, I just perceived it as something’s about to happen.” |
“He’s obviously going to do something um, he, you know, he’s not obeying commands and he’s, he’s got something in his mind. He’s, he’s going to do something.” “He was grabbing something out of his pocket and going to be throwing something at us, going to be using something”
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“Believed that to be an overt, aggressive movement towards Officer Kneller. I felt that his life was in danger without a doubt.” “I thought he was going to kill my guy. He was, it, it was a, it, step, it, but I couldn’t see his face, I couldn’t see — the expression that he had, but I thought he was going to murder him.” “Um, you know, uh, at that point I felt that his life was in danger without a doubt. Um, I took another half step to my right to make sure I had a clear, a clear backdrop, um, |
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Shots |
“he comes back up with something in his hand. Starts waving it around, kind of, almost starts turning around towards Johnson.” “And kind of went like this and was going back and forth with it.” “Flaring it around.” “there was some kind of object in his hand. Um, he started to, seemed like he was waving it around, and towards Officer Johnson.” “Q: after he drew this…an estimate, how many seconds or minutes passed before you heard the shot? A: Probably about five seconds.” “he had it in his arm and he pulled it up to like “Q: Was he still stumbling then-or how was he behaving? A: No, he was standing straight up. He was kind of planted. Um, |
“And next thing I know I see um, his hand coming up and it looked like, like a triangle, all I seen is a triangle, and I knew, you know, we’re looking for a knife, so I took a step back. I reached for, for my weapon and then I just heard pow, pow. And then, when I heard that, then his, his, his movement kept coming up and he had a, the knife and he just like, like threw it.” Q: And, and then after he pulls it, how far does he get before you hear shots or can you give me a time? A: Seconds, not even, not even.” “He was here and he was halfway up, that’s when he, like I said, the first time he reached for his pockets here, and I said keep your hands out of your pockets. And the second time his hands was like here, like I said helping his self up and he was, looked right at her and he just said take care of my dog. And then he reached up a little higher and that’s |
“As the man took the knife out of his pocket, he swung it and, you know, it could’ve been meant for any of us. It could’ve been meant for me, cause I was right behind Johnson. At that point, as he was swinging it, I heard two, two gunshots, you know, double tap. And um, the knife was thrown into the front yard of this house here” “Well, after he threw it, I heard um, you know two shots, and that’s when he went down.”
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“As I fire the shots, he is — he’s turning, um, in a downward motion towards Officer Kneller” “He’s coming with a, a downward, uh, a downward motion and that’s when, you know, I’m firing the, the, the two shots “ Q: Now where’s Johnson?… or whatever, uh, whatever officer. It looks like, uh, four to five feet away. And he’s, and he’s making that motion with a step? A: yes sir. Q: And then when do you shoot him, when he’s up here, when he, down here, or do you remember?…
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Knife Thrown |
“two shots rang out on my right hand side. Um, the suspect then stopped and seemed to throw the knife. And then he kind of just went down.” “I heard the shots. He kind of just stood there, threw the knife and then kind of just fell down and was laying down on the ground.”
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I just heard pow, pow. And then, when I heard that, then this movement kept coming up and Q: Now does he stop after he’s shot and, and then throw it or is it, what is it? A: it was one, it was one movement, pow, pow and then he was kind of back and went like that. Q: So it wasn’t a second movement or anything, it’s just? A: Yeah, it was just up. A: Did I see him throw, I mean, yeah. QQ: Did you see the knife when he threw it? A: No, I, no, I don’t, I mean, I can’t say I seen the knife, you know, flying in the air, no I didn’t, I mean, cause, you know, I thought, I just seen him, you know, go like that and I knew he threw it and I actually thought it went on the roof,”
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Q: The way you’re doing it is one motion. A: Yeah, it’s just. Q: Not like after he got shot he went back to throw it again… A: Went like this, one quick motion.” “Well, after he threw it, I heard um, you know two shots, and that’s when he went down”
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QQ: Did you see him do anything after you fired? A: I see him go down. |
